We’re inaugurating a new series: Kernel Interviews, in which we chat with authors whose books inspire us, and today we are speaking with Tobi Ogundiran, a writer of fantasy and speculative fiction, whose collection of short stories, Jackal, Jackal, debuted in 2023 and was a Publishers Weekly Top 10 Summer Reads. His stories are filled with magic and menace and demons, both figurative and literal, and his voice invites you to lean in close to the fire.
Ogundiran, who was born and raised in Lagos, Nigeria, attended medical school in Russia, and completed a family medicine residency in Nigeria, before moving to Oxford, MS, where he is currently an MFA student in fiction at the University of Mississippi.
Sarah caught up with him on a busy day—he was participating in two additional interviews for Jackal, Jackal and was also on deadline to submit a manuscript to his publisher. That manuscript is the second volume of his duology, Guardian of the Gods, both forthcoming from Tor.com. The first volume, In the Shadow of the Fall, will be released in July of 2024, followed by book two in January of 2025.
[Editor’s note: This interview was edited for length and clarity.]
Sarah Ligon: I'm so interested in the stories in Jackal, Jackal and how they are centered on folk tales and fables. I think this is an unusual mode of storytelling in this day and age. What drew you to this kind of storytelling in the first place?
Tobi Ogundiran: I grew up in Nigeria, so I found myself surrounded by these kinds of stories, listening to my grandparents tell classic Nigerian folk tales to myself and my siblings. I was lucky that there was a healthy publishing of Nigerian books, so those are also the kind of books I was initially exposed to. Then, naturally, I started to read Western fairy tales like “Cinderella” and “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” and all that.
You have different cultures all around the world, and they've each got their own set of folk tales or fairy tales. And it's interesting that most of these cultures have no cross-cultural pollination, but there are similarities in the stories they tell themselves. That stood out to me: how does the human mind work in such a way that groups of people who've never met each other still have the same kinds of stories, just dressed up in different skins? That was what drew me to writing these kinds of stories.
The first story in your collection, “The Tale of Jaja and Canti,” features a man who is made of wood and lives an extraordinarily long and interesting life. A lot of readers will instantly recognize similarities between this and the Italian fairy tale of Pinocchio. I understand that was not at all your inspiration. So where did the idea for this story come from?
I'm a very visual writer, so I see the stories and scenes like in a movie. The opening scene of that story came to me where there's this man made of wood. He's just sitting on the balcony and waiting, and I was really interested in his story. Actually, I woke up from sleep to scribble down the first sentence: “Seated on the balcony of the house across the street is a man.” I wrote these words down, and I sat with it for quite a while.
Writing this story was a way for me to answer the questions: Who is this man? What does he want? Why is he made of wood? It was only after completing the story, and I gave it to my brother and sister, my first readers, that they pointed out how this is kind of like Pinocchio. So I guess it was, in a way, inspired by Pinocchio but not consciously on my part because, again, I'd absorbed all those fairy tales and folk tales from around the world that my mind is constantly trying to find ways to fit them all together.
Another story in the collection, “Midnight in Moscow,” is about storytelling. A Nigerian man in Moscow falls in with a trio of living Matryoshka and becomes enmeshed in an effort to kill the witch, Baba Yaga—ultimately exorcizing his own demons in the process. It is a story within a story, and in the collection, this story begins with the questions: “How do stories begin? How do stories endure?” What's your answer to your own questions?
That is something I spend a lot of time thinking about. Stories began as a way for humans to understand themselves and understand the world in which they exist. Going back to folk tales and fairy tales, these are stories people in different cultures tell themselves to either instruct or explain phenomena. Why does the cock crow at dawn? How is a star born? Why does lightning strike and then thunder comes some seconds after? And then a story comes out to answer that. But what's interesting is the stories that endure. They are passed on for generations and generations and generations because they have some kind of enduring quality. I can't say exactly why some do and some just fizzle out, but it's definitely an interesting question to ask and ponder about.
My priority is to write, so that's what I afford the most time in my day to, and everything else becomes secondary.
-Tobi Ogundiran
You published your first collection of short stories after your first year in an MFA program. What was that process like? And is there anything you would do differently with your next book project?
My collection is out with Undertow Publications, a small press, and they produce really beautiful books. The covers are always amazing, and the quality of the work is also top-notch. They are a really respected publisher in the industry. Around 2017, I read a collection that they put out: Priya Sharma's All The Fabulous Beasts, and I was blown away by the quality. So I made the decision that once I had enough stories for a collection, I wanted them to publish my book.
Fast forward to 2022. I had 16 stories and some of my stories had appeared in magazines and had gained some clout in industry circles. So I DM'ed the publisher/editor on Twitter, “Hey, I've got this collection. Are you open to looking at it?” And he knew who I was and said, “Sure.” And then in March of 2022, he got back to me: “I absolutely love it. I love your voice. I want to publish this.” They were my dream publisher for this particular collection, and I'm just glad he also loved the book and decided to acquire it.
That was before you started in the MFA program, then?
Yes, I signed the deal and everything before I started the MFA program, before I even got the acceptance letters, actually.
And you published without an agent?
Yeah, I did that without an agent. It's received wisdom in the industry that querying or even publishing a collection [versus a novel] is really tough and agents aren’t really looking for that. So I just cut out the middleman and went straight to the publisher. I did eventually get an agent for my other book, but that was with a deal in hand. So I had an offer from one of the Big Five publishers, and I went to the agent of my choice and was like, “Hey, I've got this deal, this contract. Are you open to representing me?” And they said yes.
There's something to be said for storytelling that is unencumbered by the mechanics of technique or craft. Not to say that these elements aren't necessary, but there's just something to be said for letting your imagination go wild and not being scared to tackle whatever genre you want to do or tell whatever stories you want to tell, and not pandering to the market.
-Tobi Ogundiran
You have a really circuitous path to writing professionally. You went to medical school in Russia. You worked as a physician in Nigeria. What effect did that have on the stories you tell?
I lived the first 19 years of my life in Nigeria, and I really didn't start to write about Nigeria or infuse elements of Nigerian folklore into my writing until I was out of the country. I was already living in Russia when I started to write the stories that appear in Jackal, Jackal. Also I've just written one story about Russia, “Midnight in Moscow,” and that was only after I left Russia. So I guess there's something to be said for distance from a place, which gives you perspective or maybe nostalgia. Who knows—when I leave Mississippi, maybe I'm going to write about Oxford?
So what made you want to do an MFA? You already had a book deal and were well on your way to becoming a published author.
It's a combination of factors. Growing up, I always had these two career paths in mind. I wanted to be a doctor but also a successful writer. So now I was a doctor, I had a degree, and I thought, why not just do this MFA program while I was still young and unencumbered and not beholden to anyone, just get it out of my system and see where that takes me? Because my greatest fear is lying on my deathbed and having regrets. I try to do everything that I've got on my bucket list so that I have no regrets when it is time to look at the Grim Reaper.
So right now you're taking graduate classes and you’re teaching undergrads. When do you write?
I try to carve out two hours a day to write. I'm just about to turn in book two of my duology, Guardian of the Gods, to my editor. So when I'm in the thick of a project, I try to write for as many hours as I can in a day. It all comes down to strict time management and also knowing my priorities. Part of why I decided to do the MFA program is because it affords you time to write, but you really have to take out the time to write because there are also literary seminar classes that can really get in the way if you let them get in the way. My priority is to write, so that's what I afford the most time in my day to, and everything else becomes secondary.
Whose writing inspires you?
I absolutely love Neil Gaiman's work. He's a phenomenal storyteller. There's a difference between being a storyteller and a writer, right? So a storyteller in the original sense of the word is the person who’s crafting stories, regardless of the medium, regardless of age group. There's something to be said for storytelling that is unencumbered by the mechanics of technique or craft. Not to say that these elements aren't necessary, but there's just something to be said for letting your imagination go wild and not being scared to tackle whatever genre you want or tell whatever stories you want to tell, and not pandering to the market.
Ursula K. Le Guin is also someone I really respect—a phenomenal thinker, wonderful prose stylist. Stephen King falls into the storyteller category because if you think about it, most of his ideas are borderline ludicrous but he delivers them in such a way that they become beautiful stories.
What are you working on right now?
Right now I am working on a duology. I'm finishing book two, which I'm going to turn into my editor in two days. Book one [In the Shadow of the Fall] has been edited. I'm waiting for copy edits, but it's pretty much done and already in production. That is going to be out in July of 2024, and then book two in January of 2025.
The novels deal with faith and its insidious manipulation. There is a temple where there are acolytes who are servants and become priests so they can serve these gods. The protagonist Ashâke has been an acolyte for as long as she can remember. What needs to happen for you to become a priest is a god finally speaks to you and chooses you to serve them, but no god speaks to her. So, frustrated, she builds an idan, a small statuette in which you can summon the essence of a god and bind and trap them and bend them to your will and she demands answers, like, “Why hasn't anyone chosen me? Why am I stuck as an acolyte?” And that's when shit hits the fan. She experiences a vision which draws the attention of a powerful enemy sect, and she's thrust into this centuries-old war between gods and these other factions. Everything explodes from there.
So, to close, what would be your kernel of advice for emerging writers?
Read a lot and write a lot. The best way to become a writer is to read, and then once you've read, it's time to write. For emerging writers, I would highly encourage you to imitate, imitate, and imitate. Your own voice will emerge after imitating writers you admire.
I would say all of the stories in the collection were me actively trying to channel some other writer. There's a story called “Isn't Your Daughter Such a Doll?,” which was me trying to channel the writer Helen Oyeyemi. She wrote The Icarus Girl. “Midnight in Moscow” was me trying to channel Gaiman and his kind of storytelling. I had just read American Gods, so that was heavily at the back of my mind as I wrote this story. The nature of the prose, the dreamlike quality to the story itself. I'm always channeling writers. I feel like whenever I sit down to write my inspirations, I imagine them behind me just looking over my shoulder and saying, “Do this, do that.”
Even seasoned writers routinely—and liberally—steal ideas and craft techniques. But eventually that is filtered through you as a writer and your own unique stamp comes out in whatever you're working on.
Tobi’s kernel of advice: Read a lot, write a lot, and imitate the stories you admire; your own voice will emerge.
Inspiration, Information, & Insight
This summer, Shelby was invited to talk about writing on The Y Arts Podcast, an extension of her local YMCA branch, and the episode dropped last week. You can listen to it here. She also read Black Sheep by Rachel Harrison for the book club she hosts. She enjoyed Harrison’s writing style and thought the book was a fun read for spooky season—and her book club members agreed!
Sarah failed at her Mini 1000 goal this week. She only got two days in before life intervened. Although maybe that’s not a total fail? She’s also up to her eyeballs in reading for school, including Faulkner’s Go Down, Moses, and Sontag’s On Photography. But a highlight was reading Ling Ma’s inventive story, “Los Angeles,” and snickering every time the protagonist’s husband spoke in dollar signs. Sarah wishes she had thought of that.
Two-thousand words logged on her old man character this week. Less than Natalia wanted, but more than she’s written in weeks. Veronica by Mary Gaitskill is blowing her mind and reminding her to break the rules of storytelling. Gaitskill makes her reader work for the secret knowledge of the book as she often hops from present to past (sometimes every other sentence!).
This week, Neidy spent time focusing on her family. She is excited to jump back into reading and writing.